LEILA FADEL, HOST:
For more on the relationship between the U.S. and Colombia, Kevin Whitaker is with us. He was the U.S. ambassador to Colombia under former President Obama and in President Trump's first term. He's currently a senior fellow at the nonpartisan think tank the Atlantic Council. Good morning, Ambassador, and thank you for being on the program.
KEVIN WHITAKER: Good morning. It's my pleasure to be here.
FADEL: So we just heard that Colombia used to be the strongest U.S. ally in Latin America. Given the harsh trading of accusations, the threats to aid, the pulling of the top diplomat by Colombia from the U.S., is that alliance now dead?
WHITAKER: I don't know if it's dead but it's certainly in a very bad condition. Probably the worst moment in bilateral relations in our 200-year history of having diplomatic relations.
FADEL: If this alliance crumbles, an alliance really focused on fighting drug smuggling, what does that mean strategically? Does something else fill the gap vis-a-vis going after cartels and the drug trade?
WHITAKER: I think that's an important factor. I mean, clearly our collaboration with Colombia has delivered real results over the years. A lot of those successes have been rolled back because of the Petro administration's policies. There's more coca now in Colombia than before. Plan Colombia started 25 years ago.
But we also worked on improving Colombia's institutionality. Plan Colombia was much broader than that, and it would be a great shame to lose those advances. The final point I'll make, just quickly, is that our engagement with Colombia demonstrated how we could work effectively with an ally in a difficult situation. And again, it would be a shame to lose that background as well.
FADEL: The rhetoric from Trump and Petro is very striking and very public. Trump called Colombia's president, Gustavo Petro, a drug leader. You were a diplomat. How would you handle this diplomatically with an ally?
WHITAKER: You know, it's interesting because they're quite similar in some ways. They both run their own foreign policies. They're both very apt to use social media to make declarations. They're both prone to these kind of over-the-top statements. Look, this is not the way to resolve problems like this as a general matter. And indeed, John Otis mentioned the crisis in January where Colombia initially refused to take migrants back to Colombia. And that was resolved diplomatically. There were discussions and an agreement was reached. Hopefully, in this case, that can be done again.
FADEL: What about the American attacks on boats in the Caribbean? Very controversial, big questions about the legality of this and whether it is actually extrajudicial killings. I mean, are those attacks an effective substitute when it comes to battling the drug trade versus dealing with it through these alliances with Colombia's help?
WHITAKER: I'll leave the legality of it to lawyers. But look, the fact is that drug traffickers use a variety of methods to get their products to markets. If small boats won't do it, then they'll use semisubmersibles and submersible submarines. If those don't do it, they'll use container traffic. If those don't, they'll use individual human beings. That's been used as well. And even small planes. So taking out one axis of importation, sure, you could have short-term results. But the enemy, in this case, will adapt and you have to adapt to that as well.
FADEL: What would you do in this moment? I mean, you were the ambassador to Colombia. You dealt with these types of issues. You described a coca trade that has increased under Petro. What would you do in this really crisis moment when it comes to this alliance?
WHITAKER: It's important to take into account the nature of the Trump administration. President Trump in his tweet made absolutely clear what he was interested in, which is more action on the drug front. The fact is that Colombia could be doing a lot more on drugs. Eradication of coca has dropped to almost zero. And for that reason, as I mentioned, there's more coca now than when Plan Colombia started.
If there were to be an effort begun to have a rigorous, serious anti-narcotics effort, I think that would help a lot. You know, it's also true that we have - there's a substantial base of support for Colombia in the United States and for the United States in Colombia. And those allies in civil society need to be activated now to insist on a better approach at this point.
FADEL: This crumbling of the alliance, as you said, you don't think it's dead, but it's in a crisis moment. What are the larger repercussions for the region if it continues in this trajectory?
WHITAKER: One, as you mentioned, you know, and just as John Otis mentioned, a lot of the aid that we're providing is precisely to support the police and the armed forces and the fiscalia, the attorney general's office. So, you know, losing that would be critically bad. And but also, it undermines our position in the hemisphere if we push aside that which was our closest ally.
FADEL: Kevin Whitaker is a former U.S. ambassador to Colombia. Ambassador, thank you for your time and your insights.
WHITAKER: My pleasure. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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