With planetary collapse on the horizon, what do young activists make of this responsibility How do they feel about the work of fixing the climate crisis How do they navigate despair, burnout, grief, hope, and joy What can they teach us about how to bring our best selves to these perilous times Listen in as Keanu Arpels-Josiah, founder of New York City’s Fridays for the Future, talks about how youth activists are leveraging their climate magic to build a future they desire.
Shownotes:
- Fridays for the Future NYC (a hub of the climate movement sparked by Greta Thunberg)
- New York Times article, “As teenagers, they protested Trump’s climate policy. Now what”
- Sunrise Movement (youth movement to effect change in policy)
- Naomi Klein’s The Shock Doctrine book and concept
- Ayana Elizabeth’s Johnson’s What if We Get it Right
- Michael Rothberg’s The Implicated Subject
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Machine Transcript below:
RAY: Today I'm talking to Keanu Arpels-Josiah. He's a 19-year old youth climate justice organizer based on Munsee Lenape land in what is now called New York City. He's been an organizer and the policy co-lead for Fridays for the future NYC, where he's advocated for action on climate justice and legislation on many levels.
His work helped lead to the passage and signing of the Climate Superfund Act in 2024, in New York, and his work has been covered by outlets from NPR, Politico, Sierra magazine, NBC news, and the front page of The New York Times, which we talk about in this interview. In this conversation, Quijano and I talk about youth climate anxiety and how that shapes his motivation to engage in organizing. We talk about doom and gloom and the role of joy in not only sustaining your energy, but as an actual tactic. Quijano said that his choice to lean into climate activism is not an innate, natural thing or even comfortable, but that it's an everyday choice.
He talked about how to reframe climate activism around the now and the local, as opposed to only the future and the global. Those frames of time and place can often alienate or discourage people and make it feel not relevant. Keanu even offered up his own explanation of the climate Venn diagram that helps us find our climate magic. Let's dive in.
There is this front cover New York Times article December 10th, 2024 that you were in. The title of it was as teenagers, they protested Trump's climate policy. Now what Obviously, this came out at the end of 2020 for the election results for the new president.
We're already in. And the article was really looking at what was happening with the youth climate movement on the precipice of this new administration. We're going to get there in a in a minute. But can you just tell us a little bit about your journey that got you in the front page of The New York Times, as as a rt of role model for this particular story of youth climate activism
KEANU ARPELS-JOSIAH: Yeah, totally. And yeah, I think it's interesting, what we measure as kind of success, individually as activists and is not And I feel it feels weird for me. Seeing a thing that is I feel I never kind of envision my role in this movement. As the face of the movement any kind of way.
I feel it's really important to understand kind of how collective the movement is. And most of the organizing work, most activist work happens, without being covered. It happens behind the scenes, happens without speaking. And I feel that's most of my organizing. I just wanted to kind of preface it with that. And that's kind of yeah, I don't know.
I think the climate crisis for me has always been a really big part of how I thought about my future and the future of the world. I don't really remember a moment, except maybe when I was really, really young where the climate crisis was not a thing I was aware of when I was thinking about my future. And I think that's the case for a lot of people, my generation.
I think it's always been a thing that has shaped our thinking about our lives in various ways. I remember even being in elementary school and thinking about the climate crisis.
But that understanding of the climate crisis is very vague still. But all through middle school and elementary school, whenever I had the opportunity to write about a thing, I would always talk about climate. I would always talk about environmental justice or what my vision of that was at the time, which was a lot of individual action. I think that is what it is for a lot of people.
That's what we're taught in institutions that talk about this. We're taught to think about our carbon footprint. We're told to think about recycling. We're told to think reduce, reuse, recycle. And all of these things stem from plastic industries or fossil fuel industries, whatever. And it wasn't until I started organizing where I learned that. But, 2019, I think was the big moment for me where I started to realize, the climate crisis isn't just a thing that's far away and happening in the future, I remember there were these massive wildfires in Australia at the time that I was thinking about.
I remember hurricane Sandy and how that shut down everything. I live in lower Manhattan and affected, the one train affected many different trains and things we rely on on an everyday basis. And 2019 seeing the global climate strikes, seeing 200,000 people on the streets in New York City who were my age,
Seeing people who are not much older than me up on stage and leading that organizing, I think, was a real moment for me where I realized, not only is this movement already being led by people my age, We have a response no one else is doing this work without us, it's going to take everyone being involved. And that I kind of saw a role for myself within that. Then Covid, I think, slowed down my organizing a little bit.
Also, following that, I was in eighth grade and middle school at the time of the global climate strikes. And it wasn't really until 10th grade where I kind of got reengaged back in climate justice organizing and going out to actions. It was through Fridays for Future New York City, which is the organization that I now help lead, in New York, which is, the new York City chapter of the Global Fridays for Future Movement, started in 2018 by Greta Timberg. I kind of got involved in that first through taking over an environmental club at my school and wanting to shift the focus from individual action, to what can we actually do to support climate justice and learning about this, learning about other climate justice organizers and their work on the internet, watching talks and panels.
And understanding this basic rule of our movements and the conversation around climate and also just going out to marches. I remember the first zoom call I joined for Fridays for future, and I was expecting maybe 20, 30, 40 people to be on it. And I remember joining and it was me and four other people. And I think a lot of people, when we get involved in organizing, especially as young people have that moment of learning, that we think these movements are much bigger than they are.
And in me ways they are really big, But in other ways they're not. And we need many more people involved than we have now. I gradually, I think, started to find my role there.
Yeah. And then I got involved in a congressional race in my district, and started doing me electoral work through Sunrise Movement, through both of these organizations. I met my closest friends. And I think that's such an important component of this organizing as And, yeah, and then 2023 rolled around.
And I remember we had this moment, on Earth Day 2023, coming back from a big march in DC that we had organized a bus down for, we were all talking. We got poured on in the rain, and we started to talk about what we can do. In September, we started to talk about where the movement is at now with me of the organizers from 2020, from 2019, Who were my role models getting involved and now are mentors and friends of mine. And that's where this idea of the march to end fossil fuels came up, which is kind of how I got involved more in national climate organizing and then in other spaces.
RAY: Yeah. Yeah. You pointed out many things that I want to pull me threads on. One is the collective aspect your initial opening point
Absolutely. It's it's been a theme. And everyone I've spoken with for this show, the incredible importance of the collective is as rt of a counter friction to the individualism of this culture we live in, including the environmentalism as individualism. I love you.
I love thinking about you and your club shifting it from a sustainability individual action thing to a climate justice movement. That's cool. And also in all of that, I'm rt of curious, if you were to give me an emotional arc or journey through that, you had this kind of growing sense of urgency or anxiety or amorphous sense that things weren't for your future when you were very young. Yeah.
Maybe you were getting that in your classes or from your parents or from friends.
KEANU ARPELS-JOSIAH: A combination of all. Yeah.
RAY: Yeah. You're just living in that water. And then, a lot of people take that information about the scariness of climate change and just shut down or check out or have, denial or even or apathy. These are all really elegant cognitive lutions to the cognitive dissonance of thinking.
The world is really going the wrong direction, and it's vast and big, and there's nothing I can do about it. And I'm just going to live a very different life where I'm in, just pretending that's not happening and just carry on. That disconnect causes a lot of anguish for people, but I think that that is what the brain would like us to do. And you, you did a thing very different.
You chose to lean in with everything you have. I'm curious what in you, what kind of quality in you, or what inspired you to think that that was a way to to maybe assuage me of the anguish that you felt and has it.
KEANU ARPELS-JOSIAH: Yeah. I don't think it's an innate thing to anyone. I think it's a everyday choice in me ways. But I think, yeah, climate drama is, And a thing that we come across as organizers, as just people every day.
The future is gone. And there's nothing we can do about it. let's enjoy the time we have now.
And I think it's a really privileged decision, the people who are at the frontlines of the climate crisis do not have the ability to make that decision. They can't just enjoy their lives without fighting the fossil fuel plant in their backyard. And I think we have a responsibility as young people, to understand that another future isn't just possible, but it's a thing that we deserve.
I, I, I have days of deep anxiety around the climate crisis. I have days where it's hard to envision what organized thing we can do from this moment that can be truly impactful. But I think you always have to go back and remember that, every fraction of a degree matters of warming that we prevent, every fossil fuel plant that we shut down matters. Every dollar of climate resiliency funding we can get to go to frontline communities matters.
And every one way we can prod the fossil fuel industry and challenge their power protects and saves lives. we have to understand that that is really what the fight is about, And I think, there's a thing I think of all the time of where kind of have previous movements been in similar positions.
I think about the suffrage movement. Think about abolition movements. All of these movements have overcome things that have felt impossible.
I think we have no other responsibility than to face this movement, this moment, not with despair and not with denial, but with everything we can to force action. Yeah, I think there's a Baldwin quote of movement's responsibility is to achieve the impossible. And I think about that a lot.
RAY: I was going to say there, what's your rt of favorite mantra when you're really feeling despairing about it. And that feels a really good one. Yeah. Yeah I have, I have mine, the one that I always hold on to whenever I'm just this is bad is I just always pull out a trimmer.
Brown's seed. What you want to grow, Sarah Seed what you want to grow. And that just keeps pulling me out. Piece for me.
Also, I love that one that you have from Baldwin. You mentioned, you're saying we have to, you're saying these are the reasons why I feel compelled to do this, this work. Who are you doing this for You doing this for you
You did this to be a good, good ancestor. Are you doing this to for, where do you get the moral imperative to to think in the beyond your lifetime This way
KEANU ARPELS-JOSIAH: Yeah. I think it's for everyone, I think it's. Yeah, it's for me.
It's for my friends. It's for all the people we love. It's for everyone on this planet.
Who's being threatened by the climate crisis In various ways. It's a very interesting question.
RAY: And we can come back to it, too. Yeah. Yeah, there's many people and individualism tells us that this one, especially a privileged individualism, which is usually the kind that there is, the two go together.
That individual tells us that what goes on past our own lifetimes does matter. people who grow up with a sense of moral obligation to things and creatures and humans beyond themselves, much less beyond their own lifetime, it is a special thing.
KEANU ARPELS-JOSIAH: Yeah, yeah. I feel part of it is it's not only just beyond our lifetime. it's also happening now.
I'm very keen on that. And if not, that's what you're saying. But I'm saying I think part of it is organizing for now.
And what we can do to protect our communities. I think I feel there's, yeah, no other choice than and that is in a lot of ways, I think there's no world where we can just go about our lives and fascism, eco fascism, the climate crisis, not affect us. I think part of it is collective survival, and part of it is also thinking about.
Yeah. our grandchildren. I have a cousin who is three, what future are they going to grow up to And I think that's really important.
RAY: I love I love what you just said there to say this is actually not about the future. And I think, or just about the future, I think, one of the things that the climate justice movement has really done a great job of correcting or re steering the climate movement around has been towards thinking about this being now, not in the future. And I do think part of what politically has to happen around in the climate movement is that reframing of things being about. Now, you you said a thing about we need more people.
The movement is more people. Why are people not joining What are their barriers How do you inspire them
And is this reframing around This is now maybe one of those strategies or what do you what is your technique. Because this is psychological, How do you get people to move outside of their cognitive biases and perceive risks that they may not be actually experiencing, yet have a moral obligation to step outside themselves or even see their own suffering as connected to climate
To get them mobilized.
KEANU ARPELS-JOSIAH: Yeah. I think yeah, as Fridays for Future and Fridays for Future spaces, we talk about the framing of the future a lot. In our time.
But I think what's really important and how I've been thinking about this most recently, is, the climate crisis, is not a thing that's happening in the future, but our movements can be about the future as much as they can be about the present and not about the future. We're trying to prevent. because that future is happening now, but about the future we're trying to build, about the future we envision for our generation, about the future we're fighting for. And that spans beyond just stopping fossil fuel emissions, stopping fossil fuel expansion and production.
It spans to all different elements of climate justice, whether that is reproductive justice, our ability as students to have free speech and to stop the genocide, our ability to live healthy and just lives. All of these things are part of climate justice. And I think that's a really important thing that we as a movement need to understand now. is when, people are being deported for things that they've said on our campuses,
When people are being deported from our communities, When people are being criminalized in all of these different ways now across our country, we can't make our movement just about even a broad vision of climate justice. That has to be about all of the different things that are affecting our future. And it has to be about a different world.
We're trying to organize it. I think that that's a key component of how can people join our movement Our movements have to be broad, They have to really understand that climate justice means a different future where we can, be safe in our communities where we can be safe from climate catastrophe, from fossil fuel and environmental injustice, where we can be safe from fascism and deportation.
And have access to food. All of these things are intertwined. And then beyond that, it's again, this idea of despair, I think is the biggest thing that block that from growing as a movement.
why should we spend this time organizing if it's all hopeless anyway And I think that what we've talked about, about pushing back against that, is another big responsibility from the moment. And also, I think, a big way of doing that is pointing out that that feeling of hopelessness is what Donald Trump and Joe Biden want us to feel, It's what the fossil fuel industry wants us to feel, They don't want us to be a continual check on their power,
They want to make as much profit as they can without us stopping them. And, and that's kind of this idea. Naomi Klein talks about the Shock Doctrine, and I've been thinking about that a lot now, where the fossil fuel industry and Trump are trying to make us feel that all of these different things on 100 different levels are going wrong. We don't even know where to start,
Yeah. And I think we need to understand that strategic understanding that where we can start is by coming together and building community and fighting these different things.
RAY: I love that you're using shock Doctrine as a way of thinking about that, that this is fatigue, the overwhelming strategic, the firehose of awful things that you can't even figure out which one to fight first is strategic, When you as a movement, Naomi Klein knew about it. Lots of people have lived through these kinds of things before. And as a movement, you already talked about how you kind of inherit and learn from past cial movements moving forward, that you don't necessarily, how from past movements to find the inner resolve to keep going even when you see bad news come out, from past movements to think about yourself as the collective, not the individual.
There's always kinds of wisdom or insights from movement that you are talking about. And short doctrine is another one of them. I had a question for you about exactly what you're just talking about.
The criminalization of student activism around Palestine and criminalization of student activism about climate and the environment is around the corner, I'm sure. Yeah. Or I guess I hear,
KEANU ARPELS-JOSIAH: Yeah, I.
RAY: Am sure that your activist colleagues are already planning strategic responses to this and that. And if you want to talk about that, that's fine. Or maybe not, but what I'm actually interested in hearing from you is what are the practices of the heart and mind that go on kind of maybe behind the scenes or that you cultivate in community together, or that you really rely on in the face of this new moment. Yeah, yeah.
KEANU ARPELS-JOSIAH: It's hard. If you don't have one, there's.
RAY: Maybe your grass roots find you.
KEANU ARPELS-JOSIAH: I think I have me that I try Yeah sure. But okay. But I think it's also no one has the answer to that. And I think we have to be honest about that.
And I think we have to really grapple with the immense burnout we're seeing across different parts of the movement now. and and also understand that that is exactly What the.
RAY: Point. Yeah.
KEANU ARPELS-JOSIAH: That's the point. Yeah. Yeah. But I think part of it is what keeps me going is organizing as an organizer.
And a thing that always, I remember with no fondness from organizing moments. Is the community that comes with it.
That's what keeps me going. And I think everyone has a slightly different answer to what keeps them going. But I think community is always the core of it in me way or another. And I can't imagine my life without being organized in this moment.
I need a way to process the fact that, fellow students are just being snatched up from the streets and taken across the country, and put in prison. we need can't hold that alone. And I think oftentimes people's response to that can be to check out. But that can only last for long.
We're all being threatened here in different ways. I feel a responsibility not to necessarily consume everything that's happening 20 47I don't think that's healthy but to understand not to. There's a balance,
There's a balance between checking out and there's a balance between doomscrolling and I, I think the way I process those feelings is through organizing and through being in the room with other people and talking about it. It's through being on the streets and turning that feeling into anger that can be organized for change. It's turning.
Yeah. I think that my question was, what are tactics to kind of stay engaged in this moment? And I think part of it for me is understanding that, the community in and of itself is a part of processing. It's a part of dealing with this moment.
And, yeah.
RAY: said, I said earlier that I couldn't imagine or you couldn't imagine living through this without organizing. And that's, that's really a testament, That. Yeah, that that clarifies.
Oh, that's not what's refueling you so that you don't burnout.
KEANU ARPELS-JOSIAH: Organizing isn't what's draining. If you're doing it, organizing should be joyful. Organizing should be what's keeping us going.
RAY: That's how I wanted to pull out of that. Yeah, Yeah. You just said at one.
KEANU ARPELS-JOSIAH: Point, yeah. I think, yeah, there's this thing that the fossil fuel industry. And again, Trump wants us to feel these emotions.
Yeah. They don't want us to follow. All Joy in and of itself can be resistance. Joy.
RAY: You're getting you're getting. one of my questions I want to ask you later, too. Yeah. I'm rry.
We we get I was I. Can't be joyful. No, we're going to get joy I love it.
KEANU ARPELS-JOSIAH: Yeah. it has to be the heart of our movements, being at a protest has to be fun. Being a, being, standing up together has to be about community, about friendship, about, Yeah.
RAY: Solidarity.
KEANU ARPELS-JOSIAH: Solidarity.
RAY: Yeah. I'm going to kind of go backwards here a little bit. We've, we've really dove deep quick, which I love. And we're already talking about joy, which is my, where I want to go to.
I have an emotional arc implicit in my question. Of course. Of course I do. But, for for people who might not even know, I don't know if you come across a lot of these folks, I bet you do.
But I do all the time. People who think that youth climate anxiety is a weird thing and they don't understand it. They're thinking that maybe, it's the scientists or the parents or the media that's getting them all hopped up on it. Or maybe you have just mental health problems in general and they're just throwing climate into their kitchen sink.
I think Jonathan hates work, the anxious generation and thinking about cial media and youth mental health. and also recently, just on April 8th, the Trump administration cut funding to climate research at Princeton. And it said that the reason for this cutting of the funding of climate research was because the research itself was causing youth climate anxiety. And I could cut that.
But the person who writes about quantum anxiety and you can is a gut punch, but also made me think, oh, is this an opportunity How do you explain youth climate anxiety to people who might not get it, or who even weaponize it against the messengers, The scientists and the educators Because I get letters all the time from people in the fossil fuel industry who tell me I'm causing these climate. And it's not the first time I've heard that argument.
I'm just curious, Your climate anxiety is not about climate science. It's about the failures of the adults in the room. But that's the thing that's obviously missing there. I'm just curious, how would you convince somebody who thinks it's your teachers and that you're innocent and that, teachers are failing, indoctrinating you with, with these ideas that are causing you climate anxiety
KEANU ARPELS-JOSIAH: Yeah. Oh my God. I know.
RAY: Take that in. Take that.
KEANU ARPELS-JOSIAH: Yeah. it's backwards. I think the reality is that the climate crisis is about calling that climate anxiety.
Not the discussion about it. And I think that that argument is rooted in preventing change. And ignoring the reality, I think there is a balance between stoking and I this reminds me also of kind of this conversation around climate communication at large, that we shouldn't talk about how scary of a moment this is, And how high the stakes are.
Because it's just going to lead to drama. It's which doesn't lead us to action. And, I think there are moments where you just overwhelm with the statistics of the moment, And the scariness of the moment, and don't have any other part of the conversation.
I think that can be problematic. There has to be the call to action, but we need to be honest about the state of the world that we're in now. We need to be honest about the fact that we need to stop fossil fuel expansion yesterday. We need to be honest about the fact that I saw a statistic the other day that more than half of animal species, nut species, animal lives have decreased.
The whole animal population of the world has decreased by more than 50% in the past couple of decades. That's insane to comprehend, we need to understand the reality of the moment. Not to be scared of it, but, but not just to be scared of it.
To be scared of it in part, but also to understand. As Greta Thunberg says all the time, our house is on fire. to understand the moment of crisis we're in,
And to use that crisis as a mode to change the world. it's not indoctrinating to talk about the reality. It's not causing our anxiety to talk about it.
I think we need to reckon with reality if we're going to change it.
RAY: Yeah. It makes me want to ask you another follow up question, which is, how does it feel to have your vulnerability as a young person weaponized in service of protecting you, the paternalism of that And it kind of, this idea that, is there a thing unique that being young offers this particular message I know that young people resent or in general, I have heard from the people I have talked to, the young people I've talked to, that when adults tell them you're our only hope, or they tell them, yes, you're going to lve all these problems, you give me hope.
It's a double edged sword. It really rubs wrong.
And you can maybe explain that too, from your perspective, on the other side of that coin, is there a thing uniquely valuable about you being young that helps you get this message across, or gives you me moral high ground
KEANU ARPELS-JOSIAH: The message around climate anxiety
RAY: just the message about this is a problem. We need to fix it, Yeah. Good Britain had been successful.
Had she been for.
KEANU ARPELS-JOSIAH: No. Yeah, And there's also been, I think a lot of analysis into why the media chose Greta. As kind of the face of this movement. And she's talked a lot about how how strategic of a decision and problematic the decision is.
And now since 2020, the media has stopped covering her. And people are wait, is Greta, what is she up to And she's been organizing the whole time since. But it's not being covered anymore because it now also threatens the root of these systems.
Ever since she talk about Palestine. Not going to have any coverage. I've got it ever since she talked about climate injustice. Not going to have any coverage.
RAY: She was threatening to the status quo and just. Yeah, just a.
KEANU ARPELS-JOSIAH: Yeah.
RAY: young.
KEANU ARPELS-JOSIAH: Person in me ways threatening, but still they've found a way to co-opt it. I think we need to understand our role as youth in the climate crisis.
Yes. As the generation who's going to be most impacted. Whose future is on the line. But also understand that, we're not the only people who are being most affected by the climate crisis,
Also, understanding that environmental justice organizers have been doing this work for decades before us, Understanding that indigenous people have been doing this work for centuries before us. I think we do have an important role in this movement as young people. And but does everyone.
should everyone. And I think it's going to take all of us to be a part of the change that we need to see to change the systems now. And I think that gets to this idea of young people as the hope for the future.
Because it dissolves the person saying that of any responsibility to act. And I receive that comment, as I'm sure many of your students have many times. And, we need to understand that only together are we going to face this moment. It's not just going to be our generation,
That's going to change the systems. It's going to be our generation in combination with other generations, in combination with environmental justice organizers, in combination with indigenous organizers. And land defenders. I think, yeah, those things go together.
And I think this idea of hope, I feel at times can also be really frustrating. We need to have hope, we need to, but sometimes I think that conversely, passion can get in the way of actual important conversations, I think often.
People of privilege are the only people who have a decision not to have hope. And I think that we have to understand that hope is a decision, that we all make on an everyday basis. Hope is a thing that we gain from community.
But don't hope is a thing you have to figure out internally. And find that answer and then join them. Yeah.
I don't, don't just ask us endlessly. Why should I have to live? Should I have hope?
We can tell you the answers for us, But then go from that to a place of action, Find hope and action. That's where I find my hope is in organizing, as I've said, I think those things go together.
RAY: Yeah. I've heard many great discussions about the idea of hope and whether or not there's what kinds of hopes are worthwhile pursuing and which ones are actually useful for organizing and which ones aren't. And of course, the, the, the grand of, do the action first and the hope follows. There's all kinds of theorizing about whether we should even talk about hope or not.
And I do love what you just said about just the conversation about give me reasons to be hopeful also has, when you're asked that as a young person or when you're asked that as a person who's in a vulnerable position, who feels the person asking you is using it as an excuse to not take action to help you. And it feels this double edged sword, and I, I really hear that. And what you're saying. Yeah, hope is a funny one that way.
KEANU ARPELS-JOSIAH: I have a good friend Roy shout out using I don't know if her work, but she, is a great organizer, environmental justice organizer from Louisiana. And led a lot of the organizing and keep to this big LNG project that Trump is now trying to fast track. But we got Biden to put a pause on last, last February. And she has more or two more fossil fuel sites, just within a mile of her home.
And she'll post these videos, of bringing her kids to school. And you see the massive amount of smoke and flaring. And I can imagine she's gotten this question many times before. And I'm just the audacity to ask someone,
A question of how do you have the hope to fight when the alternative isn't even an option And I think that's a thing that people need to understand. And if she can have the ability to organize in this moment. I think we all have to find faith that we can do it.
RAY: Yeah. I do think that, one of the barriers you've been describing, me of the barriers to getting people involved, one of those barriers is that sense that the problem is too big and nothing they could do would make a difference. And in cial psychology this is called pseudo and efficacy. Is this idea that the negative feeling of not being able to lve the whole problem outweighs the positive feeling of being able to lve even just a little bit
And it is just one of these cognitive things in our brains. If it feels like we're not going to be able to love the whole thing, we won't do anything. It's even research on people to figure this out about people. And I'm curious, you've given us many reasons why we should we should be involved,
And not just sort of hang on to other people's hope and use it as an excuse to carry on this is normal. You talked about hope as a practice, as a luxury. you have the choice of it or not. I'm curious for mebody for whom it's not just about choosing hope or trying to find a way to weasel out the kind of this I don't see how I could possibly make a difference.
And I need to feel I'm making a difference to bother getting involved. Or maybe I need to find me small way to get involved that I can feel the small way of making an impact is good enough. What is your way of rt of helping people through that kind of cognitive bias or that mental block The problem of climate justice you've just described
It's related to reproductive justice, it's related to genocide. It's related to all of these other things: freedom, freedom of speech. Immigration. All of these things are connected.
It could feel overwhelming, Sisyphus or Atlas holding the world. And I can see especially young people saying, that's too much for me. I'm just going to check out not to go back to this checking out again, but, is there do you have compassion for that position, and if how did you yourself kind of decide what I do matters
KEANU ARPELS-JOSIAH: Yeah, I think oftentimes about Doctor Ayanna. Elizabeth Johnson has this diagram of what you're good at.
RAY: Yes. I'm holding up the book in case anybody that you can't see this because this is, on audio only, but I'm just holding it. My, what if we get a beautiful book, and I'll put it in the show notes.
Yeah. Carry on.
KEANU ARPELS-JOSIAH: I just read an excerpt from that this week. And I think it's beautiful. But she had and she includes it in this book also.
This Venn diagram of what you're good at, what you enjoy doing and what needs doing. And kind of from that Venn diagram, you find the in-between, which is your personal climate action. And I think it's really important to understand that our movements are diverse.
They aren't just people, who are maybe doing the organizing. It looks I'm doing it more often. which is organizing marches, doing legislative organizing. Organizing, for groups in our community.
And, it isn't just The people at the front of the marches. Who are organizers, Organizing and changing our future. And the work that needs to be done spans across many different areas of work.
Whether that's art, whether that's community, community, care work, whether that is mutual aid work, whether that is Educate, action, work. All of these different things are part of our movements in different ways. And I think we do have a responsibility to, show up together.
And when there are those bigger calls to actions showing up for each other in our different lines of work, I would never have envisioned myself kind of playing the role and the movement that I do now. When I was in middle school, I was very introverted, and not the type of person to go to a march, and scream at an elected official.
But that work and I don't think anyone is naturally that type of person, where I haven't encountered them. Yeah. But, I think I think though, we that's why the Venn diagram isn't just what we're comfortable doing, It's going beyond all of those different things to kind of understand what can we specifically do in this movement at this moment.
What can we bring to all of these different moments on a daily basis? How can we kind of organize in a different ways I don't think I think that's one key part, is that organizing doesn't need to look at one thing. I think the other thing, to this idea of the problem being too big and how do we kind of where do we start,
How do we face this when even small things feel they can't change everything I think it's again, we have to understand why we are doing this work. It's to protect each other.
It's to change the future. And that can look very small scale things. As as very large scale things.
And all those things kind of come together. whether it's just stopping a fossil fuel site in your community specifically. And that's the thing you organize around, whether it's, making sure a community farm still has funding in New York, we recently did a campaign to save our compost community compost budget. And that doesn't fix the whole problem in and of itself.
Most of the compost in New York doesn't get turned into compost and is turned into, bio gas. Which is a whole other bucket of plants. But it's saving the worms.
KEANU ARPELS-JOSIAH: But. organizing to save this one program. It is not fixing everything, but it's an important step, we don't need to change everything.
We're not going to have one lution that's going to change everything ever. But it's going to be all of those individual local things that change relationships in our communities. that are going to be where we have to start with our organizing and where also that more systematic change is going to begin as
RAY: All I love is what you're saying. It resonates a lot. It also suggests a thing that I, I'm learning from me of the other people interviewing about the role of clearly just having community trust as a kind of climate action and climate resilience, in and of itself, not just a means to the end of me of these policy changes that you're speaking to that beautifully, too. I don't know if you've come across the book Slow Burn.
But this is by a person named Jason Park, who's an economist at, I believe, at MIT. And, he's written this book about all the very, very tiny, almost invisible, invisible ways that climate change is going to affect our lives because we often think about climate change, having these big, we can only really sell it on TV and media, these big things. a fire or a flood or a thing.
But he talks about really the non-trivial but almost invisible ways that climate change is taking kind of cumulative, accumulates and destroys our ability to function and destroys our ability to learn and destroys our ability to, be productive. And if you want to look at it from sheer economic terms, it diminishes GDP and all these sort of things. I'm just what I take out of it. And when he argues two, which is a thing you just said, is that precisely because climate change is going to have these very micro effects and all of these spaces that you would normally not think of them, those are also the same spaces of our organizing and action and contribution, which are micro and immediate and local.
instead of thinking about, oh, how am I going to stop that hurricane, you're thinking, how am I going to intervene in this very small way to make sure my kid's school has air conditioning, even that feels like a big thing. It could even be more micro than that. Could just be getting to know your neighbors, because your neighbors are going to be the most ly to help you if you have a natural disaster, and it's going to help you avoid really bad PTSD.
There's all kinds of things that you're saying that make me think. Maybe one of, though, in addition to what you said earlier about reframing to the now reframing in this moment to the to the far more micro and local as a way of not thinking of the problem is big, because I do think the part of the reason why we don't have more people is because the problem just feels too big, and that that does a thing to our brains. And as I say, I can't do it because we're individualistic,
We live in an individual society, I don't know if you wanted to add to that or if you. Yeah. Have you if you've seen that book or are thinking about that in any way. Yeah.
KEANU ARPELS-JOSIAH: I think this framing again of the climate crisis is just global, We say the global climate crisis. Global warming, literally global warming. All of these phrases again, come from the fossil fuel industry. But and.
RAY: And it makes it big that we don't feel we can do.
KEANU ARPELS-JOSIAH: About its strategic, and we, we. Yeah. I was at the UN climate conference in Dubai, in 2023. And I think people look to that space as the place where we're going to see the kind of global action we need to see to face the climate crisis.
in that space. From my assessment and from the movement's assessment of being there for 29 years, almost 30 now, it's not going to be that space, That that's a space that is there are 2500 and or 2000 and 456 fossil fuel lobbyists in Dubai in 2023 when I was there. these are spaces that only and and none, nothing that's decided at clubs are binding.
That's the other key thing, In 2010, they committed to fund $100 billion in loss and damage funding by 2020. none of that was funded. I think we need to, we need to, not talk about the climate crisis just as a thing that's global,
It also is a thing that affects us locally in all of these different ways. And not just through these dramatic events of hurricanes, wildfires. But also my allergies have been awful here in this past week.
And the climate crisis makes pollen levels worse and worse and worse. I've been thinking a lot about that. But also, yeah, through worsening asthma rates. Things that are much more kind of, drastic states than pollen allergies,
Through all of these different things that are gradual. But because they're gradual, we don't talk about them. We don't see them. I think we need to reframe the climate crisis as a thing that's not just this moment.
but a thing that is occurring in our communities and both fast moments of ultimately what it is violence, past moments of violence towards our communities from the climate crisis. And moments that happen over longer periods of time. And then the other key thing, of understanding our organizing, not just as a global we're not just going to it's not just about degrees of warming. And degrees of warming doesn't just happen, and internationally.
It's not just parts per million either. None of these things just happen. And an international global conversation also. All of these are local conversations,
Especially on Turtle Island. Or the United States is the biggest historic emitter of fossil fuels in the world. I'm from New York City.
New York City is the third biggest emitting city in the world, We in the global North, emit and caused this crisis by such. And we it's the systems that we're a part of, Not just us as individuals. But we have much more power to change those systems, than meone in the global uth necessarily does.
And I think we have even more of a responsibility. And that, again, can start with your local school. It starts with your neighborhood. It starts with every local bit of power you can.
RAY: Yeah, I love it. I love that too. And I love the, the one of the ways that I try to tell my students that they have a lot of power is by exactly that argument you just made that, and it's not. And I try to say, this is not about making you feel guilty.
And I love this theory of implicated subjects, this theory of implicated subjects, I believe. And I'll put in the show notes and look it up. It's Michael Rosenberg, a book on implicated subjects. It talks about how you can be implicated in harm without ever having consented to do and not knowing any way out.
Yeah, You're implicated. And I try to teach them that this is not, this is not their fault, but they actually gives them far more power than they think they have. and that's kind of empowering.
I wanted to move to this question that we came up with when I met you at Swarthmore last, I think it was November. We talked briefly about the role of media in fomenting or making climate anxiety worse. And you asked me about doomscrolling or you said a thing about, give me examples of people doing this work on solutions or, rt of counter doomscrolling media production.
I guess I'm going to guess, because of your background and your skill and your wisdom from these years of organizing, that you have a very intentional relationship with your attention. I'm curious what your media life and relationship is these days.
KEANU ARPELS-JOSIAH: Yeah, I try to be intentional. It's not. Always intentional. It's it's.
RAY: Not a daily practice, daily. To write. I have a terrible relationship. Oh my gosh, Kiana, I need you to help me.
Wake up in the morning and go into hysterics sometimes.
KEANU ARPELS-JOSIAH: No, I, I yeah, I often start on my phone in the mornings. Not a good not I don't recommend. Yes.
RAY: We both are guilty.
KEANU ARPELS-JOSIAH: Yeah. I'm still struggling to find the best method to keep up to date with her on using this moment. I have friends who've been working on putting it together, community curated and better on using this moment, which I think is really important. And, it's it's finding those individual trusted sources.
And it's also kind of finding ways to be informed, that aren't just doom. And also you turning that in that, that, that building, that moment of being informed into action. Because I am able to stay informed, I am able to call my awful member of Congress all the time and tell them that they should be doing more things. now.
I am able to, but even more impactful, they call my council member and say they should make a statement about how x, y, z thing is happening. And my assembly member and my state senator, who I now have been able to make personal relationships with through my organizing. And I think those people are really accessible in different ways. If you have good ones, at least if you don't.
Elect a good one. But, let's.
RAY: Just hope we have democracy.
KEANU ARPELS-JOSIAH: But yeah, but even the bad ones, if you're organized, you can really impact them.
RAY: Way I think about it is if you're ever on a stage ever, and you've got the bright lights on, you can't see anyone in front of you, you can't see anybody that's in the crowd. But if you cover the bright lights, you can see everybody in the crowd. I have this feeling of the current administration and the news about the current administration is this bright light. And if I'm just standing there, I think that was the only thing that existed.
But if I shade it a little bit, I can actually see all this other stuff happening in the crowd that's great and amazing. And I want to turn my attention, my light on to the stuff that's happening, maybe on a much smaller stages around the main stage, outside of the main blaring lights, and on that note, I'd to ask you if there are communities or organizations that are doing really great work along these lines that we've been talking about, that you want to uplift or shine me light on, that you think people should be paying more attention to
KEANU ARPELS-JOSIAH: There's many, Oh, I think.
RAY: Yeah, that's the thing. There's a lot of people in that crowd. Yeah.
KEANU ARPELS-JOSIAH: Yeah. I think for many, it starts by looking at what's happening around you. And finding those folks. And getting involved.
Yeah. And yeah that's Most ly. Yeah. A close partner of ours in New York, that has been doing really great work to, kind of meet this moment is on the road in New York.
And they're part of the National Center for Popular Democracy, I guess now it's Popular Democracy, no longer center for Popular Advocacy. But the Popular Front of Popular Democracy network, And they do a ton of work, in communities. They're really visible. And I think that's what we really have to do to meet this moment, is in all of our different communities, organize based on the structures that exist, whether that's neighborhood by neighborhood, which is what makes they do.
I'm trying to think of other good ones to give a shout out to. But I think, find the ones locally, That you can contribute to find the actions to come out to.
RAY: I find interesting that the list that you've given is that I don't think the word climate was in any of those names, and it just underscores your point that the way we're going to work on climate and be useful to climate is and all of these other ways that don't necessarily have this global frame to it.
KEANU ARPELS-JOSIAH: Yeah. I think the climate. Yeah, we have to understand that to meet this moment, it can't just be separating ourselves into one issue box.
And that doesn't just go for the climate justice movement. we have to understand that across our movements, Yeah.
RAY: Yeah.
KEANU ARPELS-JOSIAH: And we have to actually show up for each other. the other big thing I didn't name is unions. And I think that's the other key thing, We need to make our organizing structures based on community structures.
Whether that is communities we're creating for this organizing, which I think is another important part. And is what a lot of advocacy groups are. But it also can be communities that we just exist in on a daily basis, whether that's schools, whether that's workplaces, whether that's neighborhood homes, neighborhoods. Yeah.
RAY: I love it. Okay. I'll ask you one last question and then I'll let you go. It's definitely taking your time.
One of my favorite quotes again, when I'm feeling really down is don't let the devil steal your joy. you knew we were going to go to Joy. We got to end on joy. How are you at cultivating or protecting joy in your life
And how important do you think it is to the work you're doing
KEANU ARPELS-JOSIAH: Yeah, it's important. Again, joy is resistance is a thing that I think is important for us to remember. I think whether that's through. friends, whether that's through community, whether that's through doing things you really enjoy, I think those are the things I look to.
It's through maintaining community friendships. That's where I find my joy.
But I also find joy in organizing. And a lot of my friends are organizers, too. I think, build, yeah, build that community, the sides of joy.
And, understand that the act of there's really good vibes at a protest and people don't realize that. Before you go to. Before you have the experience.
We've been doing these clinic defense actions in Philadelphia. by my college. And there have been similar ones in New York, where there is these anti-abortion folks who come and try to, terrorize patients and stop them from accessing their care. And we just disrupt the space by playing music and by laughing and singing along.
And just taking up space with joy and not this, sad Juma is, whatever that hostility, Yeah. Insanity. Yeah. That's coming from.
The super wing. it's not jitsu you're talking.
RAY: About is it's not just the thing that you do to keep yourself from burning out,
KEANU ARPELS-JOSIAH: You don't just separate joy into the space beyond our movements and sadness and organizing into those women's spaces, It has to be a balance of all different parts of our lives. We need to find joy in all those different spaces.
But yeah, I the best options that I've been up that I remember have been really fun.
RAY: Because your brain is a pleasure seeking machine. Yeah. Your brain, pleasure, are welcome to that. Yeah, I love, I love, Andrew Brown's work.
Pleasure activism. And. Yeah, I'm sure you're familiar with all of her pleasure using the neuroscience of our brains to figure out how to get more people in our movements for pleasure, Yeah, Keanu, I just enjoy thoroughly listening to you, and I don't dare say you give me hope.
But I am super supportive. And it is my climate magic to try to be of support to people who are doing this work. And it is the thing I found to be where, I am most, most get the most joy in those communities. it's really just a pleasure.
And I'm getting much joy listening to you and talking with you.
KEANU ARPELS-JOSIAH: Thank you much. It's been fun. Yeah.
RAY: You've just been listening to my conversation with Keanu Josiah, a youth activist and founder of New York City's Fridays for the future. You can find Shownotes and listen to other episodes of Climate Magic, in case you talk, I'm Sarah Jaquett Ray and thanks for listening to Climate Magic.
ANNR: Produced at Cal Poly Humboldt.